New to D&D, no idea where to start

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Re: New to D&D, no idea where to start

Postby Relmin » 22 Mar 2012, 23:07

I personally love the character builder and I have used it up until now for my current character, but I would not suggest using it for your first game. It can be good to use to easily make a character, but you get a lot more out of the game if you learn to make a character on your own.

First, it is good to hand make your character because then you know the system better. By knowing the system better you understand why your bonuses are what they are and you are not reliant on someone to tell you what you need to do. Also it makes the transition between on edition and another easier if you want to try out other types of game. Once you create a character for one DnD edition it is very similar to make one for other editions.

Secondly, it is easier to "house rule" a hand written character. The problem I ran into now, and the reason I have to convert my level 11 character to a hand written one, is that the character builder would not let me take the paragon path I wanted. By doing your sheet by hand it is a lot easier to change your character to exactly how you want it. That way if your DM gives you a power or ability that is not sanctioned by wizards of the coast you can easily integrate it into your character.

Thirdly, books are pretty and it is always nice to give money to the great store that allows us to game there!

In general I think the DnD insider is still worth it, the compendium is an awesome tool and can be used to get information you may not be able to get elsewhere. While I understand we need to support the store and having books is nice, it can be fiscally hard (at least for someone married with a kid on the way like I am) to get all the books for all the character options and all of the magical items, and all of the monsters that are available. By having DnD insider you can focus on getting the books just for the characters you know you will want to play again and again (like arcane classes for me), and use the compendium for if you get a random want to look into a different area of the game. Also the compendium gives you the character options and monsters from the dungeon and dragon magazine, which is impossible to get anywhere else that I know of...

Either way, the important thing is that you have fun with the game, the above is just my 2 cents. Always play how you want, because everyone who plays will tell you to do it their way... Hence the endless edition wars. I hope the game on Wednesday works out for you!
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Re: New to D&D, no idea where to start

Postby CultD » 23 Mar 2012, 13:31

gamedave wrote:One other thing about DDI - I suspect the reference that you found to a one-month subscription being worth it was from a few years ago. The Character Builder and Monster Builder used to be downloadable - with a one-month subscription, you could download both and use them off-line, so you only needed an active subscription if you wanted to update them. However, possibly for that very reason, Character Builder and Monster Builder (and the Compendium) are now browser-based - you have to have an active subscription to use them at all.

As I indicated before, it's probably worth it to get a one-month subscription just to take it for a test-drive; you may find Character Builder and the other materials valuable enough to spring for a full year-long subscription, or you may wind up preferring just to use the books.


Thank you for the warning. I'll take your advice and try the one-month subscription and also get the player's handbook. The good thing is I didn't plan as using the character builder for a continuous character, just a springboard to get an idea of how to create a character.

Relmin wrote:I personally love the character builder and I have used it up until now for my current character, but I would not suggest using it for your first game. It can be good to use to easily make a character, but you get a lot more out of the game if you learn to make a character on your own.

First, it is good to hand make your character because then you know the system better. By knowing the system better you understand why your bonuses are what they are and you are not reliant on someone to tell you what you need to do. Also it makes the transition between on edition and another easier if you want to try out other types of game. Once you create a character for one DnD edition it is very similar to make one for other editions.

Secondly, it is easier to "house rule" a hand written character. The problem I ran into now, and the reason I have to convert my level 11 character to a hand written one, is that the character builder would not let me take the paragon path I wanted. By doing your sheet by hand it is a lot easier to change your character to exactly how you want it. That way if your DM gives you a power or ability that is not sanctioned by wizards of the coast you can easily integrate it into your character.


Those are some really good points, there's definitely value in figuring it out yourself and I didn't even think about custom games and how that would work with it. I'm still going to get the one-month subscription, but like I said to gamedave, I'll just use the character builder as a springboard.

Relmin wrote:I hope the game on Wednesday works out for you!


Thank you very much!
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Re: New to D&D, no idea where to start

Postby Zabasaz » 23 Mar 2012, 21:57

I left my backpack in the car but later I'll grab it and figure out how much XP you should have, so that if you want to make your characters in advance you can. I'll be at CFG at around 6:45 on Wednesday, depending if I get off work at 6:30 or 7:00 or somewhere in between.
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Re: New to D&D, no idea where to start

Postby bdcjacko » 24 Mar 2012, 22:41

Just FYI for joining the wedensday game, I am an dwarf cleric and the other guy is a human ranger. Make whatever character you want, but I know I tend to pick characters to round out a party.
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Re: New to D&D, no idea where to start

Postby CultD » 25 Mar 2012, 15:36

Zabasaz wrote:I left my backpack in the car but later I'll grab it and figure out how much XP you should have, so that if you want to make your characters in advance you can. I'll be at CFG at around 6:45 on Wednesday, depending if I get off work at 6:30 or 7:00 or somewhere in between.


That would be great, thank you! I'm going to pick up the player's handbook tomorrow, so that would work out perfectly.

bdcjacko wrote:Just FYI for joining the wedensday game, I am an dwarf cleric and the other guy is a human ranger. Make whatever character you want, but I know I tend to pick characters to round out a party.


It doesn't really matter to me, but I was leaning more towards a half-elf/elf rogue. My wife and I are up to playing any character though, so if there is a specific class that we should be to help out the group, we're fine with that. Just let us know :).
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Re: New to D&D, no idea where to start

Postby gamedave » 25 Mar 2012, 17:26

Characters in 4E fit into one of four basic party roles (although your choice of feats, powers, and how you play the character can give your character overlap with more than one role).

Controllers (such as wizards) affect multiple targets or reshape the battlefield to control whole areas.

Defenders (such as fighters) draw attacks and shield other members of the party.

Leaders (such as clerics) heal and otherwise aid other members of the party.

Strikers (such as rangers) skirmish and deal heavy damage to a single target at a time.

4E is supposed to be designed so you don't need any particular class, but having at least one character for each role is very useful. If the party already has a ranger (striker) and a cleric (leader), and you want to round out the party roles, a defender (fighter or paladin from the PHB) and a controller (wizard from the PHB) would be good choices. But lacking a role isn't fatal for a party - you just have to adjust your tactics a bit. For example, in a striker-heavy party, everyone needs to hit as hard and fast as possible - you don't really have the luxury of maneuvering for position without defenders and controllers to cover you.

And that's all assuming you are playing in a combat-heavy campaign (such as Encounters). The more a campaign focuses on story and character, the less important having a "balanced" party is.

If you like filling a niche and having a distinctive role, or you prefer to support the other party members rather than being the big hero out front, figuring out what roles need to be filled is important; otherwise not so much. Ultimately, you should try to make a character that you think would be fun and interesting for you to play (that being the whole point of the game).
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Re: New to D&D, no idea where to start

Postby Zabasaz » 26 Mar 2012, 00:03

Sorry, haven't gotten that xp yet, will do it Monday night. Had an 11 hour shift today so I'm beat. (Technically it was yesterday since it's past midnight.)

Anyway, our ranger is actually a Controller, not a Striker. They used the Essentials ranger and cleric to make their characters (from the Heroes of... book series, they're really cool, good for beginners, and I recommend checking them out before you fully settle on a character, though I allow either or.) In Essentials, archer rangers are controllers and melee rangers are strikers. Right now the party could use some damage, and though they have no defender, an NPC is currently filling that niche and without him it'd be a lot more difficult. Not that it matters, my games are as combat-heavy as you make it, and by the way things look, it's gonna probably be pretty combat-heavy anyway.
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Re: New to D&D, no idea where to start

Postby CultD » 26 Mar 2012, 13:07

gamedave wrote:Characters in 4E fit into one of four basic party roles (although your choice of feats, powers, and how you play the character can give your character overlap with more than one role).

Controllers (such as wizards) affect multiple targets or reshape the battlefield to control whole areas.

Defenders (such as fighters) draw attacks and shield other members of the party.

Leaders (such as clerics) heal and otherwise aid other members of the party.

Strikers (such as rangers) skirmish and deal heavy damage to a single target at a time.

4E is supposed to be designed so you don't need any particular class, but having at least one character for each role is very useful. If the party already has a ranger (striker) and a cleric (leader), and you want to round out the party roles, a defender (fighter or paladin from the PHB) and a controller (wizard from the PHB) would be good choices. But lacking a role isn't fatal for a party - you just have to adjust your tactics a bit. For example, in a striker-heavy party, everyone needs to hit as hard and fast as possible - you don't really have the luxury of maneuvering for position without defenders and controllers to cover you.

And that's all assuming you are playing in a combat-heavy campaign (such as Encounters). The more a campaign focuses on story and character, the less important having a "balanced" party is.

If you like filling a niche and having a distinctive role, or you prefer to support the other party members rather than being the big hero out front, figuring out what roles need to be filled is important; otherwise not so much. Ultimately, you should try to make a character that you think would be fun and interesting for you to play (that being the whole point of the game).


Ok, now I know what you mean by balancing a party out, thank you for explaining that. I think I'll just go with a fighter for this campaign then.

Zabasaz wrote:Sorry, haven't gotten that xp yet, will do it Monday night. Had an 11 hour shift today so I'm beat. (Technically it was yesterday since it's past midnight.)

Anyway, our ranger is actually a Controller, not a Striker. They used the Essentials ranger and cleric to make their characters (from the Heroes of... book series, they're really cool, good for beginners, and I recommend checking them out before you fully settle on a character, though I allow either or.) In Essentials, archer rangers are controllers and melee rangers are strikers. Right now the party could use some damage, and though they have no defender, an NPC is currently filling that niche and without him it'd be a lot more difficult. Not that it matters, my games are as combat-heavy as you make it, and by the way things look, it's gonna probably be pretty combat-heavy anyway.


That's fine, I appreciate the fact that you're doing it all, thank you. I'll try a fighter then, if that is what is needed. I'm heading out to pick up the player's handbook this evening, should I pick up the Heroes of as well or instead of?
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Re: New to D&D, no idea where to start

Postby gamedave » 26 Mar 2012, 18:25

The Essentials line are books specifically designed for new players. They use the same rules as the regular books, but have simpler character designs with fewer options, so a new player won't feel too confused and overwhelmed. I actually prefer a lot of the Essentials approach to "regular" 4E.

"Heroes of the Fallen Lands" has the "classic" classes (cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard) and races (dwarf, elf, halfling, human) and all the rules you need to play. If everyone else is using Essentials characters, I'd recommend that book over the PHB. "Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms" has different classes and races from "Fallen Lands", but all the same rules material (so you only need one of the two to play, but if you buy both you're getting a lot of redundant materials). There are also several hardbacks with "Heroes of..." in the title, but these are sourcebooks with a lot supplementary material but without the basic rules, so don't accidentally buy one of those instead.
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Re: New to D&D, no idea where to start

Postby Zabasaz » 26 Mar 2012, 23:21

I'd recommend the Essentials material (Heroes of the Fallen Lands/Forgotten Kingdoms) over PHB by virtue of the fact that it's better for newer players, as Dave said, and because I think the quality of the content is slightly better than it is in the PHB, but if you prefer (or already have) one or the other, do as you feel more comfortable. The other party members are all Essentials and while they're compatible with non-Essentials players (so say an Essentials ranger and a PHB ranger together would be fine) it's usually better not to mix too bad since Essentials classes are not really limited by daily powers but live more heavily off of encounter powers and therefore tend to need less 'rest' than PHB classes.

So, yeah, I'd say Essentials. I have both FK and FL so if you want to get one for the rules and share my other one for the alternate options that's fine. Feel free to grab and/or use any sourcebook you find, I'm very open.

As for XP, so yeah, totally still don't have it, it's yet again in the car and I'm yet again worn out. I'll make a note to do it tomorrow since I'm off then.
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